Comments on: An Evening Conversation on Paul with James D.G. Dunn and N.T. Wright http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/ Just another Marketing WordPress Legion site Mon, 30 Jan 2012 02:32:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: The Day I Die http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-42 The Day I Die Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:30:10 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-42 <strong>Want to use death as an adivsor?...</strong> Now you can: there is a free utility for this. No ads, no upselling, no malware, no catch. If it helps you, great.... Want to use death as an adivsor?…

Now you can: there is a free utility for this. No ads, no upselling, no malware, no catch. If it helps you, great….

]]> By: Chee-keong Wan http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-41 Chee-keong Wan Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:28:58 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-41 Thanks brothers Abasnar and Keith for your thought provoking comments. I Cor.3 needs to be set in the wider context of I Cor.12-14, Acts 18-19.1, Rom.12.1-8 and Eph.4.11. It was through Paul's preaching of Christ (viz. laying the foundation) that the Corinthians came to believe in the Lord. Foundation laying is the primary task of an apostle (the modern missionary) and the evangelist. Teachers and prophets and pastors and so on are given to build up i.e. edify the believers. Every believer is given a gift or gifts. Note that Paul says 'every' man, 'any' man i.e. the individual Christian. If the pastor merely dishes out pious platitudes, devotional proof-texting, 'spiritual' exegesis Sunday after Sunday or advocates verbal, plenary inerrancy of Scripture, chances are his preaching will go up in smoke on that day. Forty over years ago we were let into the glory and love of God and truly edified by an expository preaching of I Thessalonians at a GCF meeting and the exegesis of the Twelve prophets in a Bible college. Those two servants of God I believe will receive their rewards. Godbless! Thanks brothers Abasnar and Keith for your thought provoking comments. I Cor.3 needs to be set in the wider context of I Cor.12-14, Acts 18-19.1, Rom.12.1-8 and Eph.4.11. It was through Paul’s preaching of Christ (viz. laying the foundation) that the Corinthians came to believe in the Lord. Foundation laying is the primary task of an apostle (the modern missionary) and the evangelist. Teachers and prophets and pastors and so on are given to build up i.e. edify the believers. Every believer is given a gift or gifts. Note that Paul says ‘every’ man, ‘any’ man i.e. the individual Christian.
If the pastor merely dishes out pious platitudes, devotional proof-texting, ‘spiritual’ exegesis Sunday after Sunday or advocates verbal, plenary inerrancy of Scripture, chances are his preaching will go up in smoke on that day. Forty over years ago we were let into the glory and love of God and truly edified by an expository preaching of I Thessalonians at a GCF meeting and the exegesis of the Twelve prophets in a Bible college. Those two servants of God I believe will receive their rewards.
Godbless!

]]> By: Keith http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Keith Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:59:50 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-40 Basnar, That is how I understand Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 3. He is not talking about how individual Christians build their lives. The entire focus is on Christian apostles/teachers and their students. Paul is talking about him and Apollos, and he says that the Corinthians are God's building. Paul says that he was the master builder who laid the foundation, and there are others (i.e. other teachers, such as Apollos) who are building on it. He says that each teacher needs to be careful how he builds. For either the teacher can build with good material (sound teaching, good example, ensuring the unity of the church) and receive a reward; or he can build with poor material (such as the division recorded in 1 Cor 1-4) and the building will be destroyed (i.e. the church will be lost). However, the teacher himself will be saved by the skin of his teeth, presumably. I think that is the clearest and most right way to understand Paul in 1 Corinthians 3. That is how he can say in Philippians and Thessalonians that the church is his pride and joy and grounds for boasting, and it also explains why Paul can say at the end of 2 Corinthians 11 that he has daily anxiety for all the churches, and why in 2 Corinthians 12 he can say that he is mournful that the Corinthians have not yet repented. Basnar,

That is how I understand Paul’s point in 1 Corinthians 3. He is not talking about how individual Christians build their lives. The entire focus is on Christian apostles/teachers and their students. Paul is talking about him and Apollos, and he says that the Corinthians are God’s building. Paul says that he was the master builder who laid the foundation, and there are others (i.e. other teachers, such as Apollos) who are building on it. He says that each teacher needs to be careful how he builds. For either the teacher can build with good material (sound teaching, good example, ensuring the unity of the church) and receive a reward; or he can build with poor material (such as the division recorded in 1 Cor 1-4) and the building will be destroyed (i.e. the church will be lost). However, the teacher himself will be saved by the skin of his teeth, presumably.

I think that is the clearest and most right way to understand Paul in 1 Corinthians 3. That is how he can say in Philippians and Thessalonians that the church is his pride and joy and grounds for boasting, and it also explains why Paul can say at the end of 2 Corinthians 11 that he has daily anxiety for all the churches, and why in 2 Corinthians 12 he can say that he is mournful that the Corinthians have not yet repented.

]]> By: abasnar http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-39 abasnar Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:11:26 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-39 I just recently stepped on the "theological movement" of "New Perspective on Paul" and was not aware that others have been working on a more accurate understandig of Paul for decades already that has become important for me during the last 4-5 years. Brother Dunn wanted to come back 1Co 3:15 (+ context), but somehow the conversation went a different direction. I noticed that Brother Wright (still) holds to the "conventional" understanding of these verses. To sum this up: Each individual Christian builds with different materials on the foundazion laid by Paul, which is Christ. If what the (indivdual) Christian produces will burn in the fire of GHod's judgement, he will be saved anyway, but "as throught fire". He will only lose his reward. How I understand it is very different: Paul is speaking of himself and other apostles who are fellow-workers with Christ. Paul laid the foundation, other Apostels or teachers build upon this and God gives growth. What is built on this foundation that has been laid are the Christians who came to Christ through the work of the Apostles and teachers. So the Corinthians can turn out to be wood and straw or gold and precious stones. And the Corinthians can be consumed by fire on judgement day. (you may compare this with the parable of the dragnet and the clean and unclean fish therein). When Paul speaks of churches as being his crown and glory on judgement day (1Th 2:19) he also urges them to renain steadfast in Christ (Php 4:1) knowing full well that his work could be in vain (Php 2:16). This means: If a church or an individual Christian falls from Grace and loses salvation, it dimishes the reward of the Apostle, teacher or evangelist accordingly. I don't know if this is very odd and strange, or if others came to the same conclusion - if anyone has a better understanding, I'd be glad to be corrected. In Christ Alexander Basnar I just recently stepped on the “theological movement” of “New Perspective on Paul” and was not aware that others have been working on a more accurate understandig of Paul for decades already that has become important for me during the last 4-5 years.

Brother Dunn wanted to come back 1Co 3:15 (+ context), but somehow the conversation went a different direction. I noticed that Brother Wright (still) holds to the “conventional” understanding of these verses.

To sum this up: Each individual Christian builds with different materials on the foundazion laid by Paul, which is Christ. If what the (indivdual) Christian produces will burn in the fire of GHod’s judgement, he will be saved anyway, but “as throught fire”. He will only lose his reward.

How I understand it is very different: Paul is speaking of himself and other apostles who are fellow-workers with Christ. Paul laid the foundation, other Apostels or teachers build upon this and God gives growth. What is built on this foundation that has been laid are the Christians who came to Christ through the work of the Apostles and teachers. So the Corinthians can turn out to be wood and straw or gold and precious stones. And the Corinthians can be consumed by fire on judgement day. (you may compare this with the parable of the dragnet and the clean and unclean fish therein).

When Paul speaks of churches as being his crown and glory on judgement day (1Th 2:19) he also urges them to renain steadfast in Christ (Php 4:1) knowing full well that his work could be in vain (Php 2:16). This means: If a church or an individual Christian falls from Grace and loses salvation, it dimishes the reward of the Apostle, teacher or evangelist accordingly.

I don’t know if this is very odd and strange, or if others came to the same conclusion – if anyone has a better understanding, I’d be glad to be corrected.

In Christ
Alexander Basnar

]]> By: The Cruciform God: Chapter 2, The Faith of Jesus « One In Jesus.info http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-38 The Cruciform God: Chapter 2, The Faith of Jesus « One In Jesus.info Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:01:59 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-38 [...] we didn’t, and so our faith allows us to be credited with Jesus’ faithfulness. As N. T. Wright explains as to a related passage – My own view is based entirely on Romans 3. I do not claim that Paul [...] [...] we didn’t, and so our faith allows us to be credited with Jesus’ faithfulness. As N. T. Wright explains as to a related passage – My own view is based entirely on Romans 3. I do not claim that Paul [...]

]]> By: Anthony Buzzard http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-37 Anthony Buzzard Wed, 17 Mar 2010 01:57:26 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-37 I cannot imagine what splitting the shema would mean. Surely if we let Luke be our guide from the beginning, we would maintain an easy and clear distinction between the Lord Messiah (2:11) and the Lord God, whose Messiah Jesus is (the Lord's Messiah, 2:26). When Paul says that "there is one God and no God except Him" he is merely repeating the Jewish unitary monotheism of his own heritage and of Jesus (Mark 12:29). Jesus is from Luke 2:11, indeed from Luke 1:32-35, the Lord Messiah, and so the "one Lord Jesus Christ" of I Cor. 8:4-6 is nothing to do with altering or expanding or splitting the shema. Jesus is as much here the lord Christ as he was in Luke 2:11 and scores of times in the NT. The distinction between the two lords, i.e. the Lord God and the Lord Messiah, goes back further to Psalm 110:1 and there YHVH speaks not to another YHVH but to an exalted non-Deity figure, adoni, definitely not Adonai. Hence Paul's creedal statement about one God and one mediator the MAN Messiah Jesus. All this is easy, until one attempts to identify Jesus with YHVH. This confuses the clear distinction between the two lords. Jesus however has an agentival unity with God and being His representative does God-things. But this does not mean that he IS YHVH. I cannot imagine what splitting the shema would mean. Surely if we let Luke be our guide from the beginning, we would maintain an easy and clear distinction between the Lord Messiah (2:11) and the Lord God, whose Messiah Jesus is (the Lord’s Messiah, 2:26). When Paul says that “there is one God and no God except Him” he is merely repeating the Jewish unitary monotheism of his own heritage and of Jesus (Mark 12:29). Jesus is from Luke 2:11, indeed from Luke 1:32-35, the Lord Messiah, and so the “one Lord Jesus Christ” of I Cor. 8:4-6 is nothing to do with altering or expanding or splitting the shema. Jesus is as much here the lord Christ as he was in Luke 2:11 and scores of times in the NT. The distinction between the two lords, i.e. the Lord God and the Lord Messiah, goes back further to Psalm 110:1 and there YHVH speaks not to another YHVH but to an exalted non-Deity figure, adoni, definitely not Adonai.

Hence Paul’s creedal statement about one God and one mediator the MAN Messiah Jesus. All this is easy, until one attempts to identify Jesus with YHVH. This confuses the clear distinction between the two lords. Jesus however has an agentival unity with God and being His representative does God-things. But this does not mean that he IS YHVH.

]]> By: December Books « On Journeying with those in Exile http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-36 December Books « On Journeying with those in Exile Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:04:32 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-36 [...] he now sees more of a tense relationship between Pauline theology and the imperial ideology [see here for that conversation]).  However, Dunn doesn’t come to many conclusions about these things [...] [...] he now sees more of a tense relationship between Pauline theology and the imperial ideology [see here for that conversation]).  However, Dunn doesn’t come to many conclusions about these things [...]

]]> By: Rachael http://www.thepaulpage.com/an-evening-conversation-on-paul-with-james-d-g-dunn-and-n-t-wright/comment-page-1/#comment-35 Rachael Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:26:06 +0000 http://www.thepaulpage.com/?p=95#comment-35 I just wanted to express my gratitude on the depth of your theology. I'm so interested but where do I begin. Paul the apostle is so complex and his letters so enormous in its theology. I'm trying to write a 2000 word essay on your book James D.G. Dunn, Paul the Apostle the theme: Pauls hope for Israel. What an extrodinary book of knowledge.If I can only somehow see the depth and richness in your writing. Thank you, in our time and age that people like you exist. I just wanted to express my gratitude on the depth of your theology. I’m so interested but where do I begin. Paul the apostle is so complex and his letters so enormous in its theology. I’m trying to write a 2000 word essay on your book James D.G. Dunn, Paul the Apostle the theme: Pauls hope for Israel. What an extrodinary book of knowledge.If I can only somehow see the depth and richness in your writing.
Thank you, in our time and age that people like you exist.

]]>